Benfotiamine: good or bad ?


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By Ross7755 - 2/14/2011 11:57:04 AM
I have not read of any study linking benfotiamine to cancer. I think you are being overly concerned. There are many studies showing the benefits of benfotiamine. Personally I take 1000 mg of benfotiamine a day and have for several years with nothing but positive results.
By juicer - 2/15/2011 7:08:46 AM
to your question about benfotiamine  and derivatives. here are my thoughts.

I am getting the feeling


that taking the right dosis is a crucial element, but lef says the more the better and an overdosis

is safe because it just does not harm with things like vitamines.

lets say a big fat person eats more than a small thin person, this means 

if a small thin person takes the same amount of vitamines as a big fat 

person then the small thin person is getting an overdosis, but lef states an overdosis is safe

for all products. I am getting to learn that a lot of people stuff their bodys with

poisons and still get old, so stuffing the body with new products and new

vitamines should just lead in the worst case to normal old age.? positive thinking?

I hope this is the case.



one thing I am getting to learn that i think is very very crucial. the psychological

effect. a happy body can assimilate and deal with a great amount of bad things and 

good things, like smokers who live long lives but love life. so i am working on taking

substances that keep the body happy next to all the lef products.




For instance Theanine that is in decof. black tee. or other healthy  substances

that induce wellness.


it is just my opinion that this is a crucial block in fighting diseases and fighting old age. 

 but fact is some people cannot

sleep after drinking coffee and others can, so why should the dosis of  benfotiamine  and derivatives.

in your case be the same for everyone... I assume it is not the same. 

evolutionary people where made to eat food not take substances. 

so the whole subject of taking vitamins and friends is from the start controversial.

I am trying to get around the whole thing by declaring a happy body can take tons 

of things good and not so good....

lets say you take a ton of things that boost the immune system. the immune system then

goes crazy. it is the same thing if a sensitive person drinks coffee then it disturbs sleep.

on the other hand other people do not get any problems with the above. i think both types of persons

have to deal with an overdosis. but in one case it is friendly in the other case

it is an enemy. is this brain induced? some people drink and drive others get drunk with

half a glass of wine. i think there has to be some research done in this area. maybe the whole

thing is complex and differential.
By triplecrown - 6/11/2011 1:29:42 PM
I would think that in countries where benfotiamine is given as an Rx(and it is my understanding this is over 10 years... yes?) that apattern of increased cancers (if 2X normal!) would have shown up.
By triplecrown - 6/13/2011 2:31:58 PM
Does anybody know the half-life of benfotiamine? What would be a appropriate dosage for someone without diabetes, just interested in the anti-glycation benefits.
By triplecrown - 6/13/2011 2:41:53 PM
I've read a study that states the following

"The effect of thiamine supplementation on tumour proliferation wasdemonstrated by in vivo experiments in mice with the ascites tumour.Thiamine supplementation in doses between 12.5 and 250 times therecommended dietary allowance (RDA) for mice were administered startingon day four of tumour inoculation. We observed a high stimulatoryeffect on tumour growth of 164% compared to controls at a thiamine doseof 25 times the RDA. This growth stimulatory effect was predicted onthe basis of correction of the pre-existing level of thiaminedeficiency (42%) [which evidently results from the cancer's gobbling upof high levels of thiamine, and "which has been observed for decades incancer patients"] , as assayed by the cofactor/enzyme ratio."

"Interestingly, at very high overdoses of thiamine, approximately 2500times the RDA, thiamine supplementation had the opposite effect andcaused 10% inhibition of tumour growth.(1)"



Does LEF plan on doing any studies to examine the relationship of taking high dose benfotiamine for tumor inhibition?

Doing the math 2500 times the rda (1.2mg) would be 3000mg a day of benfotiamine, is this advisable?
By triplecrown - 6/14/2011 11:04:58 AM
DDye, do you yourself take Benfotiamine? And if so at what dosage?

I've tried Benfotiamine this week at a dosage of 600mg. For me it is a supplement that I can actually feel a response to. I get a little energetic and somewhat giddy. I'm assuming this is due to the role it has on glucose metabolism, etc.
I would like to continue taking it, but I'm highly concerned over this tumor study. Am I just being paranoid, or is it a legitimate concern. I know not everybody's body chemistry is the same, but if I heard from someone who has taken benfotiamine for 10,15,30 years without any problems then I would probably be highly reassured in its safety. (Since its been around since I believe 1968. I believe there must be some folks that have taken it for a while.).
While I would really like to avoid the complications involved with AGES. If that means weighing the seesaw of more AGES or more of the Dreaded C-word than i guess I'll have to go AGES.

Thanks, DDye 

P.S. I always like how you respond very to my questions.Smile
By john46 - 6/14/2011 5:13:56 PM
This is a difficult subject to comment on.

Cancer cells do well on high glucose levels..(Warburg effect). B vitamins in general I believe support the breakdown of food in a way that promotes better metabolism of glucose in the cell. It would seem a short step to conclude that anything that supports metabolism of glucose would perhaps better support tumor growth. Not certain but perhaps.

There might be similar effects for anything that encourages or supports the transport of more glucose through the cell membranes. Contrary to helping by lowering external glucose levels in the blood it might deliver more glucose to the inside of cells.

It would be interesting to see if the Thiamine effect is the same when using Metformin, or Corosolic Acid to lower blood sugar levels.

If this is the case, reducing caloric intake, or eating less simple sugars and starches might slow the growth or compensate.

No recommendations for anyone here.. just contemplating the situation.

I'm no biochemist.. but I seem to recall a debate over glucogensis in the cell protoplasm versus mitochondria and that the goal was to stop supression of the mitochondria so they could complete the cellular lifecycle prematurely to stop the cell from continually dividing uncontrollably.

It would be interesting to find out where Thiamine is used.. in the cell protoplasm or by mitochondria.. if its in the protoplasm.. that would support  the idea of reducing glucose levels inside the cell to slow things down. As for reducing glucose outside in the blood stream.. a change of diet might help.

By out there - 6/14/2011 6:34:51 PM
Hi Albedo,

You mentioned about how high doses of folic acid and selenium promoted tumor growth.  What would be considered a high dose of selenium?  My wife is currently taking 200mg a day of selenium and has had breast and colon cancer in the past so is this a concern?

Thanks,

Out There
By triplecrown - 6/14/2011 6:40:31 PM
DDye, are you concerned at all over this tumor study related to Benfotiamine?
By calc - 6/15/2011 9:19:12 AM
All things in equilibrium... as best as I can tell in that study they didn't control for the other vitamins/minerals being sufficient and it at least seems fairly well established that taking too much of one nutrient out of balance with the rest can exacerbate/create a deficiency in others. So I'm not sure their results are useful in knowing how much is safe to take for someone supplementing everything, but may be useful in knowing how much may be dangerous to add unbalanced to foods.

Comments?
By out there - 6/16/2011 6:43:19 AM
Albedo,

Thanks so much for getting back to me so fast.

Out There
By oscar2u - 6/16/2011 8:01:09 AM

albedo (2/14/2011)
Hoping for some critics I just wish to let you know I cut by 4 the carnosine recommended dose in LEF formula (1000 mg). I understand that according to LEF a dose less than 1000 mg might be ineffective but I do not wish to take risks with large doses of benfotiamine.

Any critics on this?


Hello albedo, I will present my thoughts on all this: Moderation in all things is best in most cases [ not all cases for everyone at all times], including any and all supplements, exercise and such. Too much of anything is generally BAD for anyone. Our species, people, evolved in an environment that did not include excessive amounts of any particular nutrient.
    Never the less: I do see life enhancing value in supplements. But what is the ideal dosage for all the different people ? Hopefully, in this forum, we can find some guidance about all this amongst each other.
   Also, importantly: the knowledge base has grown exponentially in the last 50 years or so about all this and many new and important discoveries have been made and investigated. It is an ongoing process with many questions left unanswered and new ones appearing, arising constantly.
   The goal is life extension and enhancement. We wish to live a long time with a youthful physical body. Eternal Youth the ultimate goal.
   Some risks including cancer are associated with excessive amounts of some supplements. There is a growing body of evidence that BHT [ butylated hydroxytoluene ] taken in small dosages [ 100mg to 400mg ] per day REDUCES the risk to many cancers in a very many mice studies beginning with Dr. Denham Harman`s back in the 1950s and 1960s.
   I also only very recently ran across some important discoveries being look into by some Canadians and others about a compound with very promising results as a treatment for many cancers and maybe all cancers. I will dig up a link to all that now and post it here:  http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.283841-Canadian-Scientists-Cure-Cancer-No-One-Notices
  How can the importance of this discovery be overstated ? Yet, it remains IGNORED, by conventional medicine and the alternatives community. You hear, read very little about it. How can this be ? That article answers that question very well. Please do read it.   ...syntax
By triplecrown - 6/18/2011 12:16:19 PM
I've found a abstract report here http://www.nature.com/cdd/journal/v17/n4/full/cdd2009149a.html 
which states AGES/RAGE may be a cause of tumors in the first place because they sustain autophagy and limits apoptosis.

So Benfotiamine may be good because it inhibits AGE/RAGE, but on the other hand there is this thiamin tumor study. Which state Benfotiamine may promote tumor development by shuttling glucose through the pentose pathway.

So now I'm even more confused, but have decided to supplement with LEF's recommendation of 400-500mg daily.

It would be great if Dr. Smith or somebody with obviously more brains than me gave their opinion in the matter.


By robertc2 - 8/24/2011 12:16:27 PM
hello triplecrown/advocate!
please... do you have any more info on the thiamine tumor study you mentioned in post 2837?
thanks,
robertc2
By triplecrown - 9/1/2011 10:57:06 AM
Hey Robert ,
This is what I was referring to in post 2837. Sorry it took me a while to get back to you Smile
http://www.benfotiamine.org/excessthiamine.htm
By Kevnzworld - 5/29/2012 7:44:24 PM
Cancer.   Glucose fuels cancer.  Once cancer develops, most things that were once benign become dangerous, including thiamine, estrogen, etc.   I take 300 Mg of Benfotiamine daily for its anti glycemic affects. as well as Carnosine  ALA, and pyridoxamine...yes,...Pyridoxamine
By triplecrown - 6/2/2012 8:28:19 AM
My regimen consists of 1000mg of carnosine--usually first thing in the the morning on a empty stomach. And 4 capsules of mega benfotiamine at my heaviest meal of the day(which is 1000mg total-250 per capsule) and occasionaly if I eat a high calorie junk food or whatever when going out with friends I may take a additional 1-2 benfotiamine. I have been doing this for a about a year and a half now. I was really concerned when I first started taking benfo (and still am to a point), but hopefully the benefits outweigh the risks.
By DDye - 2/15/2011 7:18:16 AM
"lef says the more the better and an overdosis [sic] is safe because it just does not harm with things like vitamines."

"lef states an overdosis [sic] is safe for all products."

If you can point out where you believe Life Extension has stated this, perhaps we can correct the source of misinterpretation.  Overdose, by definition, is not safe.
By DDye - 6/14/2011 3:25:56 AM
"Does LEF plan on doing any studies to examine the relationship of taking high dose benfotiamine for tumor inhibition?"

Am not aware of any plan.
By DDye - 6/14/2011 11:57:25 AM
My own regimen includes 1 Benfotiamine with Thiamine per day.  This provides 100 milligrams benfotiamine.
By DDye - 6/14/2011 1:06:58 PM
According to Life Extension's Product Development department, the half-life of benfotiamine is similar to thiamine salts = 154 min or 2.5 hours. But bioavailability of benfotiamine eight days after administration is about 3.6 times greater than that after an oral dose of thiamine salt.
By DDye - 6/15/2011 9:56:20 AM
In reply to triplecrown, your question has been forwarded to Dr Michael Smith for his commentary. 
By DDye - 6/1/2012 9:46:18 AM
Tom, Dr Smith provided the following comment:

We areinterested in them, specifically via glycoconjugation.This protects the dipeptide from carnosinase hydrolysis, thus potentiallyimproving the availability of carnosine. 

Study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21194616

J InorgBiochem. 2011 Feb;105(2):181-8. Epub 2010 Nov 4.

By albedo - 1/31/2011 7:07:04 AM

Maybe good and bad ? What about the benefits and risks balance?

 

By memory there was a discussion in the old forum on thiamine induced deficiency by large usage of some nutrients (not sure I recollect, was it tea?). So I tested my blood level and found 54% higher that the lab highest reference range.

 

Problem is I am reading about possible tumor growth promoting effects of benfotiamine (which turns to be a more effective form of thiamine) and several people advising not to supplement.

 

Here I have a concern as I am taking Carnosine for AGEs and inside the formula (also for AGEs) you have 50 mg of thiamine and 50 mg of benfotiamine which, counting 100 mg in total, represents (pessimistically) 83 times the RDA.

 

Any comment? The problem looks to be known already since a certain time and I need to research more but thought to post this immediately for your consideration.

By albedo - 1/31/2011 10:55:47 AM
albedo (1/31/2011)

...By memory there was a discussion in the old forum on thiamine induced deficiency by large usage of some nutrients (not sure I recollect, was it tea?)....



Btw, yes it was tea:


http://forum.lef.org/default.aspx?f=35&m=62385

"...Consuming large amounts of tea and coffee (including decaffeinated), as well as chewing  tea leaves and betel nuts, have been associated with thiamin depletion in humans due to the presence of ATF..."

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/thiamin/

By albedo - 2/14/2011 8:27:19 AM
Hoping for some critics I just wish to let you know I cut by 4 the carnosine recommended dose in LEF formula (1000 mg). I understand that according to LEF a dose less than 1000 mg might be ineffective but I do not wish to take risks with large doses of benfotiamine.

Any critics on this?
By albedo - 2/15/2011 8:06:30 AM
Ross7755 (2/14/2011)
I have not read of any study linking benfotiamine to cancer. I think you are being overly concerned. There are many studies showing the benefits of benfotiamine. Personally I take 1000 mg of benfotiamine a day and have for several years with nothing but positive results.

Ross, thank you for your reply. Yes, I guess for one negative study you can found a positive one. There is controversy, risks vs benefits considerations, dose dependency etc and I lack time to study further....

Herewith a couple of links which rose concerns:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1432-1327.2001.02329.x/full
http://www.benfotiamine.org/excessthiamine.htm
By albedo - 3/5/2011 11:38:18 AM
I also checked elsewhere and many think the controversy on benfotiamine and cancer risks is similar to the one for high doses of folic acid or selenium: it might promote exisiting cancer but might help in preventing it to happen in the first place. Anyway I am hesitating and cut down on it. This benfotiamine promotion article is interesting.
By albedo - 6/13/2011 11:03:46 PM
The study triplecrown refers to was given before in this thread and I report it here:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1432-1327.2001.02329.x/full

The study concludes:

"...These results are especially relevant for patients with advanced cancer who present thiamine deficiency. Correcting this deficiency via dietary thiamine supplements would, according to these results, only be beneficial if a thiamine overdose is given. Moderate thiamine doses can produce the undesired side-effect of promoting tumour growth in addition to correcting thiamine deficiency.
In light of these results, both the nonregulated use of vitamin supplements in food (on the increase in the Western World) and the thiamine supplements given to advance cancer patients, used mainly as a treatment for symptoms associated with thiamine deficiency, should be reconsidered...."
By albedo - 6/15/2011 11:58:02 AM
out there (6/14/2011)
Hi Albedo,

You mentioned about how high doses of folic acid and selenium promoted tumor growth.  What would be considered a high dose of selenium?  My wife is currently taking 200mg a day of selenium and has had breast and colon cancer in the past so is this a concern?

Thanks,

Out There

Hi Out There. I do recollect concerns for folic and benfotiamine (in this thread) but not for selenium. Please search on the web and talk to your doctor and/or oncologist. There is lot of information on preventive effects of selenium (and would not exceed 200 mg), this study abstract points to benefits against angiogenesis so supplementation might be good choice.
By albedo - 6/18/2011 1:50:00 AM
Hello Syntax, thank you for the time you took to put together your thoughts on this which I appreciate.
By albedo - 10/7/2011 11:16:49 AM
Good or bad? This is definitely on the good side:

"Powerful beneficial effects of benfotiamine on cognitive impairment and β-amyloid deposition in amyloid precursor protein/presenilin-1 transgenic mice"


http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/133/5/1342.long

What I found particularly interesting (but did not read the fully study, sorry) is the apparently uniqueness of benfotiamine vs all other thiamine derivatives.
By albedo - 12/28/2011 4:08:36 AM
What I find strange in the following study, when comparing with the link posted above (post#3878) is that, while clearly confirrming better absorption than thiamine, benfotiamine apparently shows no increase of thiamine in the brain

"Our results show that oral administration of benfotiamine leads to significant increases in thiamine, ThMP and ThDP levels in blood, liver but not in the brain. This difference is in agreement with the known pharmacological profile of benfotiamine, i.e. the beneficial effects of the drug concern peripheral tissues but not the central nervous system. Like disulfide derivatives, benfotiamine may be useful for the treatment of acute peripheral syndromes of thiamine deficiency because it is better absorbed than thiamine, but in contrast to sulbutiamine, it seems to be devoid of specific effects on brain function."

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2210/8/10
By albedo - 5/17/2012 11:19:38 AM
For those still following this topic there is an interesting post HERE (by poolboy) mitigating the concerns on benfotiamine cancer risks. I would still be prone to prudence and I am still using at little doses.
By Tom. - 5/30/2012 2:24:46 PM
albedo (2/14/2011)
Hoping for some critics I just wish to let you know I cut by 4 the carnosine recommended dose in LEF formula (1000 mg). I understand that according to LEF a dose less than 1000 mg might be ineffective but I do not wish to take risks with large doses of benfotiamine.

Any critics on this?


An interview with Dr. Kyriazis MD regarding carnosine, dosage, and carnosinase-resistant analogues.

< Interview >

There is also another carnosinase-resistant analogue called: D-carnosine octylester.

Maybe LEF can comment on these analogues.

-Tom.
By albedo - 5/31/2012 2:47:18 AM
Thank you Tom for sharing.

Therefore,  should Dr. Kyriazis be correct, maybe cutting down on the LEF inclusive formula, which I find interesting, has potentially the benefit to have mitigated the benfotiamine (supposed) risk while still getting benefit from a reduced quantity of carnosine,

There is also another aspect. If we take the human equivalent dose calculated using the body surface area, the quantity of 980 mg for a 70 kg human he reports on the article as megadose also reduces to 567 mg using the different calculation (see details HERE)
By Tom. - 5/31/2012 7:59:30 AM
My personal opinion of carnosine/benfotiamine ... one capsule a day should be enough @ 500/50 for SC, and 500/75 for MEO.

Check out Dr. Kyriazis Website.  He wrote a book about carnosine. It might be worth reading.
By Tom. - 6/1/2012 2:23:56 PM
We're constantly exposed to amino-sugar reactions that taking at least a low dose carnosine daily would seem to be a wise thing to do.  

I would like to see a new and/or improved formula with the addition of these new analogs.