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Endogenous antioxidants, exogenous antioxidants, and evidence for or...

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 Posted 7/27/2011 1:22:54 PM
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Hi everyone,

As I understand it, Endogenous antioxidants  produced naturally by our own bodies, such as Glutathione, Superoxide dismutase (SOD), Alpha lipoic acid (ALA), etc., are much more powerful and helpful than the exogenous antioxidants that we obtain from our diet or supplements.

1. Is it likely that ingesting high dose exogenous antioxidants from supplements could down-regulate the production of our bodies natural endogenous antioxidants so that the body actually produces less endogenous antioxidants than it would if there were no antioxidant supplementation ? I'm thinking the effect could be similar to when people use testosterone or steroids and this down-regulates the bodies own production of testosterone and steroid hormones. Is down-regulation generally a permanent condition or does normal or per-supplement level production resume when supplementation stops ?  

In the past it has been difficult to significantly effect endogenous antioxidant production via oral supplements, but there are products today that are trying to address this issue like Glisodin that is used in some LEF products...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glisodin  

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00961/SODzyme-with-GliSODin-Wolfberry.html?source=search&key=Life%20Extension%20SODzyme%20with%20GliSODin

It has also been suggested that lipoceutical delivery methods may work http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item25152/LipoCeutical-Glutathione.html?source=search&key=Glutathione

2. Is it likely that using products like Glisodin or LEF's SODzyme® with GliSODin® & Wolfberry, could actually down-regulation the bodies own natural production of endogenous anti-oxidants ? Could the down-regulation be permanent ? I'm a little more interested in an answer to this question than question 1 because I think using  exogenous antioxidants is less likely to have an effect since those are already present in food, but not typically at supplement levels.  

There is some suggestive evidence that increasing oxidative stress, rather than taking antioxidants, can  promote longevity and health...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0531556510001282

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16242247

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/297/8/842.abstract

3. When all of evidence is considered both for and against, should we use exogenous antioxidants and/or try to increase our endogenous antioxidant production via products like Glisodin or LEF's SODzyme® with GliSODin® & Wolfberry ? What good evidence is there for trying to modify our own natural antioxidant levels via exogenous antioxidant supplements and via trying to increase endogenous antioxidant production ?

My feeling is that it may be beneficial to increase endogenous antioxidant production if it will not down regulate the bodies own natural production of endogenous antioxidants if supplementation is stopped. 

I would appreciate any thoughts, opinions, or feedback. 

Thanks

John

Foods highest in antioxidants:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Foods_highest_in_antioxidants.jpg/487px-Foods_highest_in_antioxidants.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioxidant#cite_note-Cite_pmid.7C20350594-97

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_antioxidants_in_food


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Post #3208
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 Posted 7/28/2011 4:44:53 AM
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Am not aware that exogenous antioxidants turn down the production of endogenous antioxidants.  Some exogenous antioxidants, like selenium, have been shown to increase endogenous antioxidants (i.e. glutathione peroxidase). 
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 Posted 7/28/2011 6:30:28 PM
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Thanks DDye,

What about increasing  the bodies own endogenous  antioxidant levels via supplements like Glisodin or LEF's SODzyme® with GliSODin® & Wolfberry ? Do we have any good studies or data either way that could shed some light on whether or not supplementing could cause a permanent down-regulation of our own endogenous antioxidant production if supplementation is stopped ?

As long as the total effect is such that while supplementing you have more useful endogenous antioxidants in your system, then I think there would be a benefit. 

My only concern is whether any down-regulation of our own endogenous antioxidant production could be permanent so that if you stopped using the supplements, your natural endogenous antioxidant production could be lower than it was  before starting to supplement. 








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 Posted 7/29/2011 4:50:12 AM
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There aren't any studies involving GliSODin that show that.  This one http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Phytother%20Res.%202004%20Dec%3B18(12)%3A957-62 shows an elevation in SOD, which wouldn't happen if the body started curtailing its own production in response to exogenous SOD.
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 Posted 7/29/2011 6:59:05 PM
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Well, for what it`s worth, there were many studies done with mice mostly. In these  studies the average lifespan for mice dosed with BHT [ butylated hydroxytoluene ] was increased by up to 31% compared to mice that were not dosed with BHT. There were other anti-oxidants tested, BHT was the best by far. Here is a table that rates the different anti-oxidants as average lifespan extenders called: mean lifespan in this table. There is a lengthy article that discusses all this that can be linked to from that table. So, at least for mice: a lifetime of dosing with BHT will increase the mean lifespan by up to 31% as opposed to undosed mice. Does that answer your question ? Here is that table published in the journal: PHYSIOLOGICAL REVIEWS :  http://physrev.physiology.org/content/87/4/1175/T3.expansion.html

Does this link work for other members ? I am not sure if you need to be a logged in member to: PHYSIOLOGICAL REVIEWS or not to access this table.
   Good old BHT, still working after all these years, and that is according to PHYSIOLOGICAL REVIEWS, not me.   ...Oscar


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 Posted 7/31/2011 4:52:52 AM
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It's curious that the FDA forbids BHT as a supplement...but it has been used to treat herpes:  http://drzarkov.com/blog/2009/11/19/bht-the-correct-dose-differentiates-a-remedy-from-a-food-additive/.


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 Posted 7/31/2011 2:40:18 PM
 

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Incidentally, Glutathione is one of the brain's protective 'shields' against neurodegeneration. Will Fowkes from CERI has a illuminating lecture on it's role in the brain, though it's title is something of a premature misnomer - the damage and apoptosis is not reversible, the lack of nutrition is. Still - it's a good area to look into though needs lots more research.

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 Posted 8/1/2011 5:54:56 AM
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By the way, Durk and Sandy were supplementing with BHT back in the '80s, according to their 1981 opus....
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 Posted 8/3/2011 12:08:35 PM
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Transpower (8/1/2011)
By the way, Durk and Sandy were supplementing with BHT back in the '80s, according to their 1981 opus....


  Yes Shaw and Pearson were discussing all about BHT in their books. I do believe Dr. Denham Harman is the originator of the entire concept of antioxidants as life extenders. He was hired by the US Government back in the 1950s to come up with a way of coping with the harmful effects of nuclear radiation and from his research developed the concept of antioxidants as free radical scavengers and more. BHT was the antioxidant his original research found to be most effective in increasing the average lifespan of mice, but NOT the maximum lifespan of those mice. Some of his critics pointed out that some of the mice being tested had a propensity for getting cancer and argued that ALL he was doing was preventing the BHT dosed mice from getting cancer and that accounted for their average lifespan increase. You would think SOMEONE would have found that to be a significant finding.
   But no, that is not what happened. A very many people with influence decided BHT was bad for you and did their best to influence public opinion and were very successful in those efforts.
   Pearson, Shaw and many others including myself have done what they could and can do to give BHT an honest hearing. In my opinion BHT`s benefits are great and it`s risks minor when taken in the theraputic doses discussed. My focus has been on BHT as a treatment for hepatitis C.   ...Oscar


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 Posted 8/3/2011 1:32:06 PM
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Aside from BHT's use in cosmetics and preservatives, have there been any human studies involving its use as a supplement?  What's your dosage/day?  How long have you been doing this? It would also be interesting to find out if Durk and Sandy are still taking it.... 
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