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The case AGAINST fish oil supplementation....

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 Posted 3/18/2014 11:31:30 PM
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Transpower (3/18/2014)
Today I switched from Carlson's Salmon Oil to Now's Double Strength Krill Oil.  I'm hoping that it will raise my HDL level in time for my annual LEF blood test (in April, about a month from now).




I can say this: I take one 350mg capsule of BHT per day and NO fish oil. I have been a cigarette smoker for more than 50 years. My health care provider is amazed at my consistently healthy cholesterol numbers and has told me so. Healthy blood pressure, heart rate and all that at 64 years old. And I sustain a very severe gunshot wound to and through my abdomen and back. Lost my right kidney along with most of my liver and half my colon. They wrote me off as a dead guy and put me in the hospital ship`s morgue. I asked some priest for a blanket and was told they were short on blankets. He said he would see if he could find a sheet and did find one. Thanks a lot. Eventually they got to me, had time to take me into the Operating room and I am alive. In fact I recovered enough to serve a second your of duty in Vietnam and did so as an infantryman once again. So who gives a S... . Well, you may wish to look into BHT. It seems to keep me going quite well in spite of much.   ...Oscar
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 Posted 3/19/2014 12:01:24 AM
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Kevnzworld (3/18/2014)
I think PUFA's like fish oil are fine given the following :
Fresh, check the expiration date, I won't take any LEF oil that expires in less than one year.   
Refrigerate after opening
Limit to three capsules per day, or 3000 mg
Take lipid soluble antioxidants with the oil, CoQ10 has been shown to mitigate lipid peroxidation




Why not try some BHT [ butylated hydroxytoluene ] ? It [ BHT ] is the best based on this " Physiological Reviews " report:  

      
TABLE 3.

Effect of increased antioxidant levels (by either dietary or pharmacological manipulation) on the mean and maximum longevity of vertebrate animals

Antioxidant IncreasedSurvival CurveEffect on Mean Life SpanEffect on MLSPMLSP of Controls, yrsReference Nos.
Mice
BHTYes↑ 22%=364
ETO+MEAYes==3.6130
MEAYes==2.8180
MEAYes==3.3128
MEAYes↑ 12%=2.2128
BHTYes↑ 31%=2.2128
CYS, PG, DTBH, or HNClNot==2.2128
ETOYes↑ 19%§1.966
METYes↑ 13%↑ 12%2.8133
α-TocopherolYes==3199
Mixture*Yes=§NS349
Rats
DeprenylNot↑ 2%↑ 4%2.7232
α-TocopherolYes==2.8287
α-TocopherolNot↓ 31%=2.824
Frogs
SOD, ASC, GSH, GSH-RedYes=6209
  • ASC, ascorbate; BHT, butylated hydroxytoluene; CYS, cysteine; DTBH, 2,6-di-tert-butyl-hydroquinone; ETO, ethoxyquin; GSH, glutathione; GSH-Red, GSH reductase; HNCl, hydroxylamine hydrochloride; MEA, 2-mercaptoethylamine; MET, 2-mercaptoethanol; MLSP, maximum life span; PG, propyl gallate; SOD, superoxide dismutase.

  • * Mixture of antioxidants: α-tocopherol + BHT + ascorbic acid + dl-methionine + sodium selenite.

  • Survival data shown only up to 1.75 yrs.

  • 100–1,000% tissue antioxidant inductions secondary to catalase inhibition.

  • § Not investigated; =, no change; Yes, shown; Not, not shown; NS, not significant.

     

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 Posted 3/19/2014 1:05:12 AM
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I am not at all sure ANY of the scientists involved in the research I have linked to even understand the principles involved the chemistry of BHT. Here is a link to the tert butyl effect as discussed by wikipedia:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butylated_hydroxytoluene


 BHT`s anti cancer effect here:

  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6805943

tert butyl effect:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyl#Tert-butyl_effect

But why is obscure at best. This is very simple to understand and explain: When atoms are compressed or forced into tightly packed groups as they are with these two tert-butyl  groups with that one hydroxy grouo [ O-H ] separating them a significant amount of steric strain is placed upon those carbon to hydrogen bonds weakening them. All it takes to deactivate ANY free radical is one hydrogen atom. The hydroxyl free radical is easy to illustrate: H-O. + .H = H-O-H water.
   Also, with BHT you have that hydroxy group [ it is not a free radical because it is bonded to that ring carbon ] because of oxygen`s very high electronegativity value placed between the two tert-buty groups, this is an additional force that destabolizes those carbon to hydrogen bonds in those tert-butyl groups.
    So you end up with a molecular structure very capable of ejecting hydrogen atoms as required to terminate free radicals. But this must be done one hydrogen atom after another from two different carbons and a carbon to carbon to carbon bond form between the Carbons that gave up those hydrogens. If this did not happen: each carbon that lost a hydrogen would become a free radical site. Well there is my explanation of how this all works.
   I can NOT find any of the original work by the chemists who came up with BHT. This work would have been done in or about 1947.   ...Oscar  
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 Posted 3/19/2014 1:24:18 AM
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I wish to conclude any statements I have made by stating I discovered nothing. I am trying to find out who those who first came up with BHT are and what they have to say about all this..It is worth mentioning that recent work by others have concluded that BHT in fact occurs naturally and does all I have said it does for certain plants as a natural process.   ...Oscar
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 Posted 3/19/2014 5:11:39 AM
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cletuscobb (3/17/2014)
oscar2u (3/17/2014)
Ross7755 (3/16/2014)
Oscar,  all I can say is that the article you posted was written 4 years ago, so is not current
and was written by an acupuncturist, not a doctor or medical researcher. His background sounds
more like what you have in other posts called "hippie science".
I have had nothing but a quite positive experience with fish oil for many years.



Well here is a new one for you published by " Journal of Lipids " on Jan.16, 2014

     http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3914521/

Don`t hate me because I am beautiful,   ...Oscar  

         
To stop taking fish oil altogether because of possible rancidity is as much of an over-reaction as your advocating irradiation and not eating fresh fruit and vegetables due to possible contamination and therefore missing out on the much-needed living enzymes they provide.  High quality salmon oil with natural astaxanthin solves the rancidity concerns just as proper washing fruits and veggies before consuming and taking garlic, olive leaf and/or oil of oregano solves bacterial concerns.   



You either did not read that link or missed this: 

        

"1. Introduction

The object of this review is to show how there could be no possible expectation of general patient benefit with prophylactic fish oil use. It will be shown that the amount of EPA/DHA from routine fish oil recommendations is 20Xs–500Xs more than the body would naturally produce on its own from alpha-linolenic acid (ALA)—Parent omega-3.

Advances in quantitative analysis have been made in the 21st century which are not yet disseminated in the medical community; that is, the delta-6/-5 enzymes are not impaired in the general patient population, and the amount of EPA/DHA required on a daily basis by the brain is now known to be less than 7.2mg/day. . . " -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Marine oil`s EPA/DHA spontaneously oxidizes at room temperature  and more rapidly at normal body temperature-no level of antioxidants can stop this deleterious effect" But of course the studies done and cited about all this MEAN NOTHING. Forget real science and cling to false BELIEFS based on proven to be false beliefs. I did not write that article or do those studies. The thing about chemistry is that certain compounds react the way they do under certain conditions consistently no matter what you BELIEVE.    ...Oscar

   


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 Posted 3/20/2014 4:47:48 PM
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oscar2u (3/19/2014)I sustain a very severe gunshot wound to and through my abdomen and back. Lost my right kidney along with most of my liver and half my colon. They wrote me off as a dead guy and put me in the hospital ship`s morgue. I asked some priest for a blanket and was told they were short on blankets. He said he would see if he could find a sheet and did find one. Thanks a lot. Eventually they got to me, had time to take me into the Operating room and I am alive. In fact I recovered enough to serve a second your of duty in Vietnam and did so as an infantryman once again. So who gives a S... ..Oscar


Dear Oscar,
Thank you for your service. It is brave men like you who have enabled this country to stay free.
-Tom


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The case against dietary fats >>  CLICK HERE
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 Posted 3/21/2014 5:06:35 AM
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Perhaps observational studies on the long-term benefit of omega-3 blood levels has more to do with lower PUFA overall, since additional omega-6 tends to shunt the body's ability to use the omega-3 type PUFA?

I started to re-think taking fish oil capsules last year after I was supplementing with a fairly high dose of 4 gm./ day and noticed that my wound-healing became noticeably bad. Too much omega 3 hampers good inflammation.
I did one thing different, changed my fish oil dose to 500 mg. per day (after a few days of going to zero to reduce blood levels) and quite rapidly my skin-healing properties all returned and everything is back to rapid healing. 

Cheap fish oil off the shelf that has sat there in a warm store for 18 months and was already questionable from day one is definitely a no-no. 

Yes, and a good diet is going to provide some. For instance, if you eat 2 cups of fresh dark, leafy greens, there's up to about 200 mg. of omega-3 right there, according to some nutritional charts, and it comes packaged and preserved in a leafy matrix of antioxidants and protective enzymes!



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 Posted 3/23/2014 8:23:46 PM
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Tom. (3/20/2014)
oscar2u (3/19/2014)I sustain a very severe gunshot wound to and through my abdomen and back. Lost my right kidney along with most of my liver and half my colon. They wrote me off as a dead guy and put me in the hospital ship`s morgue. I asked some priest for a blanket and was told they were short on blankets. He said he would see if he could find a sheet and did find one. Thanks a lot. Eventually they got to me, had time to take me into the Operating room and I am alive. In fact I recovered enough to serve a second your of duty in Vietnam and did so as an infantryman once again. So who gives a S... ..Oscar


Dear Oscar,
Thank you for your service. It is brave men like you who have enabled this country to stay free.
-Tom


Dear Tom, Thank you for your kind response. It does mean a lot me. I have grown increasingly concerned with the so called leadership of our current president. I do NOT trust him to protect the American people. To protect our Nation`s people is his most important duty. He failed miserably in protecting our Ambassador and his staff in Libya. They are now dead at the hands of people he armed and supported with air strikes. I have to be careful what I say here in this forum so I will say no more.   ...Oscar
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 Posted 4/18/2014 2:18:47 AM
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This is a very important topic but unfortunately the details are too technical for most laymen. 
    My layman opinion is that yes, fish oil probably has a net benefit for most people but not for the reasons most of us believe.  The net benefit would be harder to prove (with epidemiological data) if most people were without chronic low-level inflammation. A rag with PUFA oil on it can spontaneously catch on fire! Why dope our cellular membranes with similarly unstable molecules in the name of supra-physiological levels of EPA? Only if your inflammation justifies the risk, imo. In other words, it's a two-edged sword.

Ray Peat does a good job of explaining his dissenting opinion about fish oil supplementation from a biologist's perspective...

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 Posted 4/18/2014 4:47:05 PM
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Hepoberman (4/18/2014)
This is a very important topic but unfortunately the details are too technical for most laymen. 
    My layman opinion is that yes, fish oil probably has a net benefit for most people but not for the reasons most of us believe.  The net benefit would be harder to prove (with epidemiological data) if most people were without chronic low-level inflammation. A rag with PUFA oil on it can spontaneously catch on fire! Why dope our cellular membranes with similarly unstable molecules in the name of supra-physiological levels of EPA? Only if your inflammation justifies the risk, imo. In other words, it's a two-edged sword.

Ray Peat does a good job of explaining his dissenting opinion about fish oil supplementation from a biologist's perspective...



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Dear hypo berman, Thank you for this informative and very well researched by many link. This line of research is surely an important one when it comes to life extension, what this forum is devoted to. I have been a long time advocate of BHT as the best proven lifespan extender available at this time. There is the Fullerene C-60 + olive oil research that SEEMS to have the potential for at least as good of results as BHT if not substantially better results as to life extension.
    BHT has NEVER been shown to extend life beyond the MAXIMUM life span of mammals. F-C60 MIGHT have. People such as me hope some mice studies are being done with F-C60 + olive oil. The original research used the much longer lived rats as opposed to mice. Also said research was faulted and revised downward as to life extension.
    As of now the jury is still out on that one. There should be some more conclusive evidence one way or the other in the next 2 years.
   In my opinion BHT will go a long ways in helping you reach your maximum lifespan by preventing cancer, cardiovascular disease and a very many of the worst and most common viral infections.
   I weigh about 190 pounds and for me a daily dosage of 350mg of BHT taken once or twice a day with water only on an empty stomach works very well. For me the BHT cleared up a bald spot on my head and also cleared up those age spots discussed in the link you provided. It also CURED me of hepatitis C and B. By CURED I mean I now test NEGATIVE for both with the HCV and HBV using the antibodies tests for those infections. I was very sick with hepatitis C in 1997 and also tested positive for hepatitis B.
   Also I am about 65 years old and a long time cigarette smoker. Of course I am not advocating smoking. My point being in spite of said smoking BHT has kept me as healthy as I am.   ...Oscar
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